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SBCL on Gentoo (rules)

The SBCL download page shows version 1.0.14 released today, and it's already in Portage (masked). The gentoo-lisp list says we got a new Lisp project lead recently. Looks like there's plenty of Lisp going on in the Gentoo world. Personally I am very pleased with the state of Lisp in Gentoo.

Sometimes I wonder what purpose this blog serves. One purpose I found for it today was looking back through my old entries, to see how things have changed over the past couple years. I very strongly believe in introspection for the purpose of refining beliefs to make them more accurately reflect reality. In other words, I know I'm probably wrong about a lot of crap and I really don't like the thought. It bugs me. So I'm always looking for ways to change my perspective on things, if it needs changing.

I first tried Lisp in August 2006, it seems. Some of what I said was somewhat amusing, and wrong. Quoth myself:

My prediction is that Ruby will end up being mostly a superset of Lisp except for a few areas Lisp is specifically targetted at.

Oops! In fact just the opposite is true. Common Lisp is easily a superset of Ruby in all the ways that matter, specifically meta-programming and the flexibility of the object system, to name a few.

Lisp is sadly just a subset of Ruby in terms of the amount of libraries available. Ruby has tons of people writing tons of code for it. But I am finding that Common Lisp actually has a LOT more libraries than you'd guess from a quick glance. The problem is that Common Lisp is so much less "mainstream" than most languages that you have to do some digging to find the libraries you need. Once you do find them, they tend to be of high quality and great utility, from my brief experience.

Then again, Ruby itself is a subset of Perl in this regard. There's a critical mass where you probably have "enough" libraries to get the job done. Perl+CPAN is probably over the top in this regard. Ruby is there. Common Lisp is pretty close.

Quoth myself:

I must admit, properly formatting Lisp seems confusing.

Yeah, I do remember indentation of Lisp code to be pretty confusing back then. In PCL Seibel talks about how "experienced Lispers" use indentation to tell them if something funky is going on with their parens. I realized today I actually do this too now (though I am not an "experienced Lisper"). LET forms look a certain way, IF forms look a certain way, standard function calls look a certain way. You can tell immediately if something fishy is going on if the indentation is being screwy.

Actually I think people probably do this in most languages. If you've written any amount of Ruby, you know that eventually you often end up with 87 end's in a row, some closing if-then statements, some closing iterator blocks, some closing method definitions, some closing class definitions. If you type an end in Vim and it launches all the way to column 1, but you weren't expecting it there, that can tell you that you have something wrong (an extra end somewhere).

But it's much more necessary in Lisp. It seems to me that it would be extremely difficult to write good Lisp code without an editor's help. There are way too many parens for a human to keep track of. That's not to say that Lisp requires a full-blown IDE just to make the language usable (*cough*Java*cough*). Lisp syntax is regular enough that it's REALLY EASY for an editor to very consistently help you keep your parens balanced. The rules are highly logical, simple, and surprisingly standard across the Lisp community (compared to the tabs vs. whitespace, 2 vs. 4 vs. 8 spaces, curly-braces-on-newlines-or-not sorts of wars you'll find in some other languages' communities). If you use paredit or something similar, keeping your parens balanced and indented nicely is a no-brainer.

January 28, 2008 @ 2:51 PM PST
Cateogory: Programming
Tags: Lisp, Ruby, Gentoo, Java


Dirk Gently
Quoth Dirk Gently on January 29, 2008 @ 1:22 AM PST

I read this blog all the time. A lot of it is over my head but I enjoy the thought process behind it - it helps me approach how I look into issues.

Quoth Brian on January 29, 2008 @ 5:13 AM PST

Glad someone reads it!

Zach Beane
Quoth Zach Beane on January 29, 2008 @ 5:59 AM PST

I like reading your blog. I get a little frustrated when you post stuff about Common Lisp but deflect corrections or attempts to help with "this is just a rant".

I would love to see more questions about Common Lisp, posted before you get so upset with Lisp that ranting seems like the best way to find some satisfaction. Everybody starts somewhere, and most people I know who use Lisp love to help other people along.

Quoth Brian on January 29, 2008 @ 6:29 AM PST

That's understandable. If I was really looking for help with something, I'd probably take it to the mailing lists though, or some other forum, since I'd be more likely to get an answer there, and others would be more likely to benefit from it. If I posted a question here, I really wouldn't expect to get an answer at all, and I'm not sure I'd ever expect anyone else to see the answer if they had the same question. (It's awesome that you and others seem so willing to help me out here though, thanks. I have learned a lot from many of the comments people have left me.)

I expect people to take my blog as it is, just a random sampling of some guy's thoughts and opinions about something. I always thought of this blog as more about me, than about Common Lisp or anything else. I may underestimate how many people are reading this and/or how much it's going to affect people's opinion about Common Lisp. I definitely don't want to give the impression that "Common Lisp sucks" or something just because I blabbered about it.

At the same time computers in general and programming in specific are very frustrating for me at times, and that may be relevant to someone who experiences the same thing. Whether it's because I'm too stubborn to ask for help or because there really is something about computers, I don't know, but people can probably figure out for themselves. I don't want to censor myself or paint a rosier picture than the truth. I try to balance my negative rants with positive ones as much as possible, because I do enjoy Common Lisp and programming in general (most of the time).

I will keep in mind that it might be better to ask for help sooner rather than later though. It would probably be beneficial for me.